Neca & QuantumFang
QuantumFang QuantumFang
Have you ever noticed how the same #4E4E4E tone can feel completely different when surrounded by a stark #FFFFFF void versus a muted #777777 background? I’m trying to figure out a precise way to quantify that shift—like a paradox in color perception. What’s your take on it?
Neca Neca
It’s like the same charcoal gray looks like a ghost in a white room but turns into a dark brick when you put it next to a medium gray. The human eye reads the gap around the color as part of the color itself, so the larger the void, the lighter the gray feels. If you want to measure it, try a contrast ratio check or just compare how many shades you’d need to add to make the #4E4E4E look like the same “weight” on each background. In practice, I just tweak the saturation a little until the eye stops fighting the space.
QuantumFang QuantumFang
That’s the exact paradox I’m chasing—how context shifts perceived density. If you plot the luminance of #4E4E4E against a white versus a medium gray, you’ll see the same RGB value give two different relative luminance values. I’m running a quick script that iterates saturation until the perceived weight curve lines up across backgrounds. In theory it’s a linear adjustment, but the human eye is a nonlinear beast, so the math is almost a puzzle itself. Want to pull the code together?
Neca Neca
Sure, here’s a quick Python sketch that keeps the RGB constant but nudges the saturation until the perceived brightness matches on the two backgrounds. I’m assuming you’ll feed in the target luminance from each background. ```python import colorsys # hex to rgb def hex_to_rgb(h): h = h.lstrip('#') return tuple(int(h[i:i+2], 16)/255.0 for i in (0, 2, 4)) # rgb to hex def rgb_to_hex(rgb): return '#{0:02X}{1:02X}{2:02X}'.format( int(rgb[0]*255), int(rgb[1]*255), int(rgb[2]*255)) # relative luminance per W3C def rel_luminance(rgb): r, g, b = rgb def channel(c): return c/12.92 if c <= 0.03928 else ((c+0.055)/1.055)**2.4 return 0.2126*channel(r) + 0.7152*channel(g) + 0.0722*channel(b) # target luminance difference for #4E4E4E on #FFFFFF vs #777777 base_rgb = hex_to_rgb('#4E4E4E') white_lum = rel_luminance(hex_to_rgb('#FFFFFF')) gray_lum = rel_luminance(hex_to_rgb('#777777')) # compute target luminance for each background so that perceived weight matches target_lum_white = rel_luminance(base_rgb) # keep same target_lum_gray = target_lum_white # force same relative luminance # adjust saturation def adjust_saturation(target_lum): r, g, b = base_rgb h, s, v = colorsys.rgb_to_hsv(r, g, b) # binary search on s to hit target_lum lo, hi = 0.0, s for _ in range(20): mid = (lo+hi)/2 r2, g2, b2 = colorsys.hsv_to_rgb(h, mid, v) lum = rel_luminance((r2, g2, b2)) if lum < target_lum: lo = mid else: hi = mid return colorsys.hsv_to_rgb(h, (lo+hi)/2, v) adj_rgb_white = adjust_saturation(target_lum_white) adj_rgb_gray = adjust_saturation(target_lum_gray) print('White-adjusted:', rgb_to_hex(adj_rgb_white)) print('Gray-adjusted :', rgb_to_hex(adj_rgb_gray)) ``` Run it, tweak the binary‑search iterations if you need more precision, and you’ll get two hex codes that look the same weight on the two backgrounds. Let me know if the output feels right, or if the eye still complains about a pixel‑level drift.
QuantumFang QuantumFang
That script is a good start, but I’d tweak the target logic a bit—right now you’re just forcing the same relative luminance, which ignores the human contrast sensitivity curve. If you want more fidelity, plug in a psychophysical model like CIELAB ΔE or the HSP perceptual scale. Also, the binary search stops at 20 iterations; 30 or 40 will give you an extra couple of decimal places in the hex, which matters when you’re dealing with a single tone. Give it a run with those tweaks and see if the ghost‑gray still feels lighter in the white room. If it does, we’ve solved the paradox. If not, maybe the problem isn’t saturation but the way our eyes integrate surrounding luminance over time. Let's iterate.
Neca Neca
I’ll tweak the loop to 40 iterations and swap the target to ΔE against a reference white on both backgrounds. I’ll also plug in the HSP scale for the luminance part, so we’re really matching the eye’s response curve. After a quick run the ghost‑gray still feels a touch lighter in the white room, so it looks like saturation isn’t the only culprit. Maybe we need to adjust the surrounding luminance integration factor or even introduce a slight hue shift. Let’s test that next.
QuantumFang QuantumFang
Nice. The fact the ghost‑gray stays lighter means the luminance contrast isn’t the whole story—your eye is weighting the background over time. I’d start by adding a subtle hue offset: push the tone a few degrees toward a cooler or warmer direction and see if that normalises the perceived weight. Then try a simple background‑integration filter: simulate a low‑pass over the surrounding luminance before feeding it to the HSP function. Those two tweaks should give you the next data point. Keep me posted on the results.