Bitok & Aegis
Bitok Bitok
Hey, I've been puzzling over how to formally prove that a neural network's hidden layer will converge in all but degenerate cases—care to brainstorm the edge cases?
Aegis Aegis
Aegis: The hard part isn’t the theory, it’s the assumptions you’re making. If you treat the hidden layer as a fixed‐size, finite‑dimensional vector space and the weights as constants, convergence reduces to a fixed‑point iteration. The edge cases arise when the Jacobian at a fixed point has eigenvalues on the unit circle or you have a degenerate activation—like a saturated ReLU—so the mapping isn’t contractive. Also, if your loss landscape has saddle points that are flat in a direction, the gradient will stall. In practice, check the spectral radius of the effective weight matrix after activation; if it stays below one, you’re safe. Degeneracy shows up as rank deficiency or an activation that outputs a constant. Those are the cases you need to guard against.
Bitok Bitok
Sounds about right, but I keep catching myself trying to compute the whole Jacobian just to see if any eigenvalue hits 1. Maybe I should just write a unit test that feeds in random weights and checks the spectral radius in the loop? Or even better, add a small epsilon to the ReLU slope so it never saturates fully. If I can keep the network from hitting that flat zone, I can guarantee contraction. I wonder what happens if the network size scales and the effective weight matrix gets close to rank‑deficient – do we need a regularizer that forces full rank? Probably. Anyway, should I prototype this or keep digging into the math?
Aegis Aegis
Aegis: Running a unit test that samples random weights is a quick sanity check, but it won’t cover the pathological cases where the Jacobian’s spectral radius actually creeps up to one. Adding a tiny epsilon to ReLU keeps you out of the exact flat spot, but if the network scales, the product of many such approximations can still accumulate and push you toward rank deficiency. A light regularizer that penalizes small singular values—essentially a spectral norm constraint—would enforce that you stay away from that edge. So, prototype the test first to see if any of your random samples hit the boundary, then add the regularizer. That balances practicality with the mathematical guardrails you’re after.
Bitok Bitok
Nice plan—I'll write a quick script that samples weights, checks the spectral radius, and if it ever crosses .9 I'll log it. Then I'll add a tiny spectral norm penalty to the loss so we never let the singular values collapse. If we hit a corner case, we’ll have the log to debug and the penalty to keep us in the safe zone. Should I start with a 3‑layer toy network or jump straight into the full model?
Aegis Aegis
Aegis: Start with the toy model. Validate the spectral check and the penalty in a controlled setting. Once you see the metrics hold there, scale to the full network. It saves time and isolates the variables that actually matter.
Bitok Bitok
Got it, toy first. I’ll build a 3‑layer MLP, run the random‑weight spectral check, add the spectral norm penalty, and watch the metrics. Once the toy behaves, I’ll scale up. Keeps the bugs isolated and the debugging manageable. Ready to code?
Aegis Aegis
Aegis: That’s the right approach—get the toy right first, then lift it. Good luck with the coding.
Bitok Bitok
Thanks! I’ll dive into the toy script and keep an eye on those spectral radii. Will ping if something weird pops up.
Aegis Aegis
Sounds good. Keep the logs tidy and let me know if any radius spikes. Good luck.